Interview with Robert Hickman, 2019
The museum’s own interview, conducted by Zijun Luo over four days in November 2019: how Robert Hickman came to the instrument, how his design arrived, and why he makes ten- and eleven-hole ocarinas.
A note from the museum
This interview is published with Robert Hickman’s permission, given when it was conducted.
It was first published on November 27, 2019, and it was lost when the museum’s earlier website was rebuilt. Every copy the museum could reach had gone — its own archive of that address holds a “page not found,” and the Internet Archive’s only capture of it serves the same. It is restored here from the museum’s original transcript.
Nothing here is edited. The spellings, the punctuation and the turns of phrase are as Robert Hickman wrote them, and the questions are as they were asked in 2019.
This is the original introduction from November 2019, when the interview was first published:
I believe that ‘Robert Hickman’ is not a stranger name for most people who have been in the ocarina community, especially The Ocarina Network, for a while. I first came up with the idea to interview ocarina makers, especially independent makers, after Mr. Hickman has announced in mid 2019 that he may stop making ocarinas for good. By that time, I already had many lengthy conversations with Mr. Hickman on various topics on the ocarina. This idea to conduct interviews was reinforced after my successful communication with Mr. Alan Albright in early November, 2019.
The interview with Mr. Hickman was conducted via Messenger from November 22 to 25, 2019. It began with a casual conversation on the possibility of conducting an interview. When mutual interests were assured, I sent Mr. Hickman several questions, which he answered with long messages, followed by short conversations and clarifications. In the following days, I came up with additional follow-up questions based on the initial interview. Below is the full transcript, with Mr. Hickman’s approval and permission to be posted and shared.
What inspired you to start playing the ocarina?
Robert: I first discovered the ocarina sometime around 2007 when I was looking for covers of the ‘Cosmo Canyon’ theme song from Final Fantasy 7 and ran into David Erick Ramos’ video of this on the ocarina. In comparison to all of the other covers which were on tin whistle or recorder, the ocarina had a very distinctive sound that connected with me. I started looking for other performances on the ocarina but did not consider learning to play it at the time. Despite growing up in a house full of instruments, nobody had taught me music in a way that made sense, thus I considered it a black art.
Sometime between 2009 and 2010 I played Final Fantasy 9 for the first time and the music and story of this game connected very deeply to me. At the time I’d had no friends for roughly 10 years and had been living in almost total isolation from other people, actively avoiding them due to past bullying and fear that this would happen again. The game showed me why friendships and love matter, and its theme song—Melodies of Life—got stuck in my head for years. I wanted to learn to play it on something.
Later in 2011, I was working at my first job doing computer programming (back-end web development) and was looking for something to do that did not involve using a computer. I somehow ran across one of David’s videos discussing the major scale formula, and this caused many concepts in music to suddenly make sense. Previously the function of the black keys was confusing as they had only explained things in C major in school.
I could see several things that learning to play the ocarina could do for me. It would give me something non-computer related to do and performing on an instrument could help me break out of the extreme shyness and anxiety I was suffering from at the time. I started practising ‘Melodies of Life’ after work in the middle of a field close to where I was living, and after 3 or 4 months played for an audience for the first time. That was a nervous shaky mess, but I carried on with it and became more confidant.
What inspired you to start making ocarinas?
Robert: I started making ocarinas after losing the job mentioned in the previous section, mostly due to the company I was working for being poorly managed. I started making ocarinas after this as I had been making things of various kinds all my life, and had an interest in working for myself for some time. The ocarina looked like something that I could make and sell easily enough at first impression. Again, I was looking to get away from being stuck on a computer all the time.
I found information about this from many sources, like websites and the forum The Ocarina Network (TON). I got some clay and started making ocarinas. After gathering information from many tutorials, I proposed the idea for my first book on TON, and a number of people including Ross Dubois, Jade Everett, and Richard Hamlett started to offer me a lot of help and advice with it, which was totally unexpected to me and a big shock being someone with little social contact for years. I consider these people and others on the forum to be the first friends I’d had for years.
Actually, making ocarinas ended up being a lot more complex than I had expected, and it took about 6 years of research before my design started to stabilise.
When did you finally come up with the current design? What was the revealing moment that you realized you have finally developed a product that you are satisfied with?
Robert: I cannot say exactly when my current design came into existence as this did not happen at a single time, neither did realising that I had created a good product. When I first started making ocarinas, I was very afraid of other makers generally as they were a lot better than me or had a much larger following. The latter point scared me as all of my projects before getting into ocarinas had been ignored by the respective communities, I was afraid that this would happen again.
On top of that I had come to realise that the ocarina was far more complex than I had realised, that developing the things that I wanted to develop were going to take an enormous amount of time. In the face of that I also had my family pushing me to start making sales or give up and get a different job, when I should have been focusing on understanding the instrument, and no end of people were constantly telling me that what I was doing was a waste of time, and making ocarinas professionally is impossible. This led to me being really depressed and emotionally unstable between 2013 and 2015, and I was very noncommittal.
Several things broke me out of that. To some extent I got pushed to a point that I just stopped caring. I’d also been to a Prince’s Trust meeting, a British charity that helps young people start businesses, and everyone there was very enthusiastic about the ocarinas and thought that, yes it is possible to do this professionally, the first time I’d ever heard that. That was very inspiring.
Following the 2015 festival I put all of my effort into making ocarinas and isolated myself from all other makers and players. The design evolved a lot due to looking for ways that were negatively impacting my playing and making modifications to compensate for that. Simultaneously, people started paying more attention to my work organically as it improved, with no marketing effort from me.
With regards to being afraid of other makers, I am not anymore and consider that attitude very naive. For example, I felt that other makers would affect my sales. That is false, as few players own only one ocarina. In fact I think that open communal development and a market of many makers is vital to filling the needs of players. Ocarinas are capable of being very diverse in timbre, ergonomics and volume. Yet they are also inflexible once made. Different makers naturally have different interests and hand sizes, and thus appeal to or fit different players.
I find it interesting that you focus on 10 and 11 hole ocarinas today when the majority of makers focus on the 12 hole design, why is this?
Robert: I don’t think that the concept of the 12 hole design is bad, and there are some very good ones on the market such as those made by Ross Dubois. However, I also don’t believe that the 12 hole ocarina should be held as an example of higher technological development for the ocarina, but a small aspect of what can be done with the instruments physics.
The ocarina is fundamentally a limited and lousy instrument. As holes are opened air can escape. Attaining maximum range means optimising for maximum efficiency, but doing so limits the kinds of timbres that are possible, and also largely dictates the shape of the breath curve. Ocarinas can create quite a wide range of timbres and playing characteristics, but many can only be reached at a smaller range.
I make 10 and 11 hole ocarinas as I have different end goals. I’m looking to create ocarinas with a soft tone and with a relatively linear breath curve, without the high end pressure spike common on 12 hole ocarinas. Development time is also an issue as 12 holes are much more finicky. My workload outstripped my ability to deal with it a long time ago. Thus I am forced to pick between making one 12 hole, or a range of 10/11 holes in many keys. The latter is more useful for the music I play.
You have previously mentioned to me that Giorgio Pacchioni was one of your inspirations, and you also found inspiration from other instruments in reaching the current design of your ocarinas, such as the angled left thumb hole. Can you talk a little more about the design of your ocarinas?
Robert: The design of my ocarinas was somewhat inspired by Pacchioni’s work, especially the shape of the cappello providing positive support for the index finger. Other things are from observing general design features of many transverse ocarinas. A lot of it came from just observing how my hands related to the instrument, and things which felt difficult while playing.
Angling the left thumb hole was inspired by the Boehm flute, which also angles this hole. I do this as I find using the cappello support point effectively requires having the left hand in a vertical orientation. With the usual placement of that hole, doing that requires covering said hole with the tip of the thumb, and the shape of some people’s thumbs makes that impossible. Angling the hole solves that issue, and the angled hole on the Boehm flute does the same.
The split hole arose from measuring the tuning of the instrument and noticing that the tuning of the ‘C sharp’ played with the single subhole of an 11-hole ocarina tuned with a regular breath curve tends to be around a quarter tone sharp, a much larger error than any other cross fingered note. That can be solved in two ways, adding a split hole, or enlarging the subhole, requiring the subhole note to be played with a pressure rise. The latter has advantages as well as it makes the subhole louder.
I have here photos of some of your early designs. It fascinated me how much your design has changed over time!
Robert: When I first started making ocarinas, I was running under the then common idea that chamber shape doesn’t matter, and that visual design comes first. My first ocarinas were designed mostly for visuals rather than playability, and I had no idea about the ergonomic behaviours of the transverse design, as nobody had documented them as far as I was aware of.
These early works had a lot of problems, such as a tendency to screech on the high notes, or be very airy, as chamber shape does in fact matter acoustically. My first ocarinas were also made when the only commercial ocarina I had was a Mountain Ocarina’s inline. I had avoided getting a transverse as I was afraid of one getting broken in the post. I got several transverses later, after Jade and Ross thought that I should when I was discussing the problems I was having and having an emotional breakdown as nothing I was trying was working. I needed to see other ocarinas for reference. Going to the ocarina festival in 2013 was a really big help in that regard.
I got some ocarinas from Giorgio, mostly on the recommendation of Jade who is a fan of his. I also got a few that people were selling on TON. Buying ocarinas from outside Europe is very expensive in the UK, as anything over a low threshold gets hit with import taxes and handling fees that can easily double the face cost of the product.
Not long ago, you announced that you may soon stop making ocarinas. Why?
Robert: Right now, the main reason I would stop making ocarinas is if I cannot make enough income to do it as my main job going forwards. In the last few years, my ocarina making “business” have been funded partly by doing small software projects on and off. I’ve been living on very low income for a long time and have only been able to survive due to living with my family.
This situation is becoming strained, and I have been stuck in it for far longer than I had intended to be. I have now met a woman that I can see myself spending my life with, and my current interest is to make enough money to be able to make that happen. If ocarina making can fund it, I’ll keep making them. Otherwise I’ll look for more software gigs.
You have attended several ocarina festivals and have written about them on your blog. What is your general impression of the event? What do you like about it the most? What changes do you want to see?
Robert: I have been to Budrio festival 4 times (as of writing). The first time was a life changing experience. I was giddy from being exposed to so many ocarinas and players of a standard I had not seen before. It caused me to abandon everything I had been doing with my ocarinas and essentially start over. Over the following festivals that feeling of excitement has naturally fallen, but I still find the festival very enjoyable.
As of right now, Budrio ocarina festival is one of the only times I have any exposure to other ocarina makers and players in person. Making an instrument while knowing no other people involved with it is pretty dull, and my interest in the instrument tends to be running dry immediately preceding the festival.
Your ocarinas are known to have very good ergonomics. But even with the current design, there are still variations possible. For example, what are your thoughts on the locations of the subholes? Where one subhole, or two subholes may be best placed? What about Italian versus Asian fingerings for single chamber ocarinas? What about Vicinelli/Asian (V) versus Pacchioni (P) fingering systems for multichamber ocarinas? You have your favorites? Why?
Robert: First I want to say that ergonomics is a complex topic with no single answer as everyone’s hands are different. My ocarinas are ergonomic for some, but not for everyone.
The biggest complaint that I have about the design of the transverse ocarina is the right thumb hole being conflated with the primary support point, which makes playing a lot more complex than needed, and is a design feature not present in any other mainstream wind instruments that I am aware of. There are several ways of eliminating the issue that I have written about in my blog and books.
Italian vs. Asian fingerings on the high notes relates to this same issue. In my opinion Italian fingerings are marginally better, although it does depend on the music one is playing. I mostly make ocarinas with Asian fingering though as it is the most common design, and I do not want to risk alienating potential customers.
Putting the subhole of an 11-hole on the left hand is better as it allows the work of playing to be split over both hands. If there are two subholes they should be split over the hands. So if i think that, why do I put the subhole on the right hand with my 11 hole ocarinas? I do this as 12 hole ocarinas are so common, and i want to maintain fingering compatibility with the first subhole.
I don’t play multichamber that much but I prefer the Pacchioni system. A P system double in D has the same approximate range as a tin whistle and works for that kind of music. The V system is more limiting due to the lack of overlap.
What inspired you to write the two books, ‘The Art of Ocarina Making’ and ‘Serious Ocarina Player’?
Robert: When I was learning to make ocarinas I found a lot of information was available but was very fragmented, and some things were missing entirely. I started to compile this into a list of topics and the art of ocarina making assembled these into one place and attempted to fill in gaps with personal research. It fell short in some ways, and I recently made an update to the book that improves on a lot of things.
The idea to write the book was partly inspired by my previous involvement with several blogging communities and having seen several people publish and make a living from selling ebooks. My initial reaction to it was disappointment, but that was to be expected with such a niche product. However, it did fund the purchase of my kiln, which I am still using today. It also helped pay for my food.
‘Serious Ocarina Player’ is a book that I have had the idea for a long time. I put off writing it for years as I could see that it would be very difficult to write, and it was. Writing this book was an especially grueling experience that almost broke me, as I was fighting constant pushback from my family and the ocarina community. I finally broke down and wrote it due to observing the same basic mistakes being made among players very frequently. The book documents in a technical way the different things that go into playing the ocarina well. Some of the things in the book relate to things I had learned from my experience with playing the instrument with other musicians. One less obvious issue is that the shape of the breath curve required to play in concert pitch varies with temperature.
The book is dedicated to my partner, who I met in Budrio in 2019 and saved me from being broken. I don’t think I could have finished it otherwise.
Finally, what are you developing, and what new development in ocarina making or playing you would like to see and you think may be helpful to develop the instrument further and better?
Robert: I have a double alto C in progress, but it isn’t a very high priority. Besides that, nothing at this time.
The main thing that I see being possible are to eliminate the dual function of the right thumb hole as noted before. I also see a lot of possibility for an electronic ocarina like instrument both as a serious instrument and as a teaching tool. While ocarinas are often touted as easy to play, there is an ideological disconnect between this and what the instrument actually is. In some respects ocarinas are easy to play as they have a simple fingering system, but other aspects are very difficult, like how unstable their pitch is. Ocarinas are also very loud and assertive, which is not ideal when practicing by oneself.
A fully electronic instrument could address these concerns by taking the elements that fit the desired end goal while eliminating the ones that do not. Such an instrument could be effective as a teaching tool, as the difficulty of pitch can be removed from the learner, letting them focus on fingerings and articulations, and re-introduced at a later date. Such an instrument can also be practised on headphones, silently. Attempting to mute an acoustic ocarina, by comparison, mostly just makes it sound bad and throws it out of tune.
It appears to me that the choices of instruments used in education are based on visual intuition what looks easy, rather than what is actually easy. Wind instruments like the recorder and ocarina have considerable hidden complexity, as much of the technique required to play them happens hidden inside the body. I don’t know if any scientific studies have been done into how instrument choice affects learning progress. If not, that research needs doing, and I think that teaching music can be done a lot more effectively than the common methods used today, building up skills a bit at a time using multiple instruments.
Thanks for the interview. It was very enjoyable. And I hope you and your readers enjoy reading it.
Interviewed by Zijun Luo over Messenger, November 22–25, 2019, and first published by The Ocarina Museum on November 27, 2019.